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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2013 16:48:33 GMT -5
I would certainly say the right hand one looked best overall, though might be a bit big over the tyres.
I get 24.6 mm overall from a drawing of the car, though that could be wrong, it's a Walkden Fisher effort. All I can find.
Models used to be pretty accurate on tyres and grip wasn't a problem. You can't go making big "allowances" for the mystique of scale weights, etc. The models should be just that...models.
Martin
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Post by nuvolari on Jan 1, 2013 22:09:40 GMT -5
Are wheel and tyres available in this size and where might one acquire them? 4.3mm is very narrow. And how high would they be to scale? This is what I have to choose from [/img] All fit within the amended rule , the one on the right is the obvious choice out of the three. At least the contact patch is 4mm. I guess there has to be some grace in the transition from 1:1 scale down to 1:32. These cars are traveling much, much faster than the real thing in scale terms. And they are a long way of scale in tems of weight.[/quote] Now I didn't want to say anything anymore to this subject, because it will end up in an endless discussion that is running totally next to the point. And unfortunately I can't come to the competition anyway. But it's about time somebody knocks on the table and say "STOP". The Idea is, a scale model competition, and scale means an exact copy of the real thing reduced to a smaller or bigger size, no less, no more. And this is what most of us want, is to integrate this into future competition rules. I can live with it, that it is not always possible to come up with a 100% scale result, there are always restrictions to scaling, available materials, and there is the factor that you have to fit it into a slot model. Of course it's ridiculous to aspect that you can build a car fully into scale, but what the eye sees, must be as correct as possible. But this discussion needs to stay serious, and what I see here makes me angry, because those wheels Sir, aren't serious any more, if you want to use these things, than you just must call it a competition for hot rods or fantasy vehicles that look like scale 1/32 models, these monstrosities have nothing to do anymore with scale modeling. And the sooner they stop producing those as serious wheels, and move on to real scaling, the gladder I will be. Even worse, these wheels are now suggested as the standard for competition. While what we need to say is, this particular car has this wheel size in scale, so organizers act to that fact. I'm glad that there are people, these last years, who make bodies, wheels, figures, techniques etc, that makes scale modeling possible, so we don't have to make toys anymore. And in my view this is what a lot of us want to achieve here, by discussing the regulations and try to fit in scale models, it's time we leave the 60-70 type of toy building and move on to more accurate products, and this is what we should support. Now don't misunderstand me, with all do respect, I don't have anything against somebody who want to make these hot rods, if that's your thing, fine, but than don't call it a scale model, just call it a model, that is the correct word it deserves, and it has nothing to seek in this discussion in my opinion. Cheers, Danny
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Post by Stubbo on Jan 1, 2013 22:38:23 GMT -5
It looks like this thread is going the way of so many.
So many people have different interests and different ideas and different points of view. Some like things to be exact scale, others dont mind a reasonable representation of the model within tolerances.
You know what? Everybody is right, so therefore nobody is wrong. Consequently no set of rules or guidelines will suit everyone so why don't we all just learn to compromise a little bit.
We choose to be involved in 1/32 scale slot cars. Are they an exact replica of the real thing in 1/32 scale. No. They are slot cars! Unless I am mistaken this was not intended to be a scale model competition but a slot car proxy.
Lets get back to the topic.
Jon, you had the initiative to revisit this proxy so I say you make the rules and if anybody wants to play then they can. If they don't then so be it.
Cheers
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2013 23:36:06 GMT -5
Now you all might realize why I lost interest in getting this proxy race going the first time I brought it up.
There are so many factions fighting for their way that there is no room for compromise. I admire and respect all of you who are interested but there is no way that one set of rules could be written to make all of you happy.
I will stick with the Half Tonners of the VRAA as my only proxy race managing foray and keep my prewar cars in whatever scale they are presented to me as my private "fun" cars to run when friends come over.
Now if someone wants to go to the expense of making reasonably priced, sturdy, reasonably "scale" looking narrow wheels with functional tires for the prewar cars I will be one of the first in line. I have a fleet of prewar bodies begging for them.
Good luck with your project. Ken
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Post by Phil Kalbfell on Jan 2, 2013 4:27:27 GMT -5
when I got involed with Proxy racing about track list,entrants could then decide if they would be involved. IMO there is just too much discussion before a proxy finally gets started. The number of people on these forums should be more than enough to find some who will like the rules and enter. Post the rules,sit back and see how many entries you get. Phil
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Post by nuvolari on Jan 2, 2013 9:34:27 GMT -5
...was not intended to be a scale model competition but a slot car proxy...If you look at the race that way, than I got no problem that the events organizers demand hot rods for the competition. But then I have a problem with the regimentation text, that says " For 1/32 scale models that took part in Grand Prix races..." and "All models to be good 1/32 scale representations of real prototypes raced" Than it should be " For 1/32 models that look a like race cars that took part in Grand Prix races..." and "All models should look like a 1/32 representation of a prototype scale model, confirm with the organizers technical rules" Should I have read that, I wouldn't have spent any time to write one word in this topic. "Now if someone wants to go to the expense of making reasonably priced, sturdy, reasonably "scale" looking narrow wheels with functional tires for the prewar cars I will be one of the first in line."You see Moose this is what I meant, as long as nobody steps up and say to the manufacturers, we don't want to use these wheels anymore that you want to push on us. Move on, and produce wheels and tyres that are at leased good in size, and if you want to do even better, make more accepteble spokes, that's what we want. And believe me the development would cost perhaps a little more but production will cost the same. But as long as they organizing events that promote these ridiculous wheels, you can wait for ever on a suitable mass produced accepteble wheels. And what's even worse, should they develop such a wheel, your not even allowed to enter in this competition. And that's my point. And yes it should stay fun, and I hope the organizers will have an event with many competitors, a good gathering, friendship and an exciting racing part. But the debate on this forum should here for everybody's view, even grumpy people like me ;D Cheers, Danny
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2013 11:18:58 GMT -5
Danny, I'm with you here, as I think you already know. I think the real problem is tyres. Wheels can be turned down narrower, but then making a suitable tyre is either an acquired taste for mixing A with B and pouring or spending a LOT of money on a mould. But tyres can be narrowed easily on a lathe, provided they can be found of the right diameter and basic section in the first place. I would love to produce a suitable wheel, with the right number of spokes, but as Peter will tell you, there has to be a big investment in tooling, both the rims and hubs and photo-etching, which is ever more difficult and expensive since companies will only accept computer files. Most wheels available today from British suppliers are produced by a company that I found locally and they are a tiny part of their production, but I was lucky to find them so willing to work with us. To make different sizes and styles would mean much higher prices than they currently charge for fairly high numbers of "generic" wheels, a fact reflected in the cost of Peter's wheels. So, whilst some compromise is inevitable with wheel appearance, there should be no problem with making existing tyres the right width with a knife. OR, prescribe a particular tyre, so that all are in the same boat. In which case, the wheel and tyre on the right seem to be the best compromise as long as the tyre is not wider than 5mm. I started this hobby back in 1963 and it was called Model Car Racing. Slot Racing per se came later and spoiled it all for most of us.
Martin
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Post by Peter Seager-Thomas on Jan 2, 2013 11:21:17 GMT -5
Thanks for the observations. I'm sure that extending the tyre width max to 7mm isn't a problem. Would anyone have any objection or comments to the above? How wide do you suppose these tires are? The standard size for the Mercedes W154 at the rear was nominally 19 x 7.00. This works out at just over 5.5mm, so would in fact be a little over 6mm. I think this was the widest tyre used on GP cars pre-war. At Avus, the 22" wheels used would be fitted with narrower tyres to keep the weight down and keep the treads on. The fronts had 5" wide tyres. Rules. Well done Jon on asking the opinions of others. I'll probably start on the Bugatti again, making it as accurately as I can and as time permits. Hopefully opinions will be considered and the rules finalized and published. Then we can all make our choices. Peter.
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Post by Mark Huber on Jan 2, 2013 13:24:03 GMT -5
Jon,
I haven't checked whether you've floated this proposal on other boards/forums. If so, I expect that you will be receiving additional and conflicting opinions as to the rules and regulations.
I would suggest that:
1) You decide what you are going to do about tire/wheel size, motors, body materials, and any other points of contention (debate). Publish the rules sooner rather than later. How about setting the rules by January 10?
2) Once you publish the rules stick to your guns. You'll find out soon enough whether or not there are enough folks willing to participate. If you start changing rules to get more entrants, you'll have other issues that will become obvious, if they aren't already.
3) If you get enough participants, I suggest you contact a couple of folks who have run successful proxy series for some advice on other key issues, most notably securing race venues and reliable race hosts.
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Post by David Lawson on Jan 2, 2013 14:51:24 GMT -5
Very sensible words Mark.
Jon you had the rules and regs clearly set out in post 1.
Design a horse by committee and you end up with a camel, the same applies with slot car events.
David
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Post by Chris Wright on Jan 2, 2013 15:24:00 GMT -5
Agreed, Jon if it's your event it's your event, your rules, take charge.
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Post by slo on Jan 2, 2013 18:38:25 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2013 19:00:58 GMT -5
Peter, I thought you'd know what the Merc wheels should be, although I must admit I'm surprised by the 7-00 width. Would that have been tread width? A 19" wheel would have been around 20/1/2 " on the visible rim, making for a scaled wheel needing to be 16.27mm in diameter. Are there any? I've e-mailed Steve Ward at PP for info on his vintage wheels.
Of course if people can afford your wheels, they can't do better currently, though the tyre problem remains. What overall diameter would you say the Merc tyre was, fitted?
Jon, you need to jump in on this debate, mate, it's your bash and if I'm to make the chassis for you, I'm going to need the right sizes to work to.
Martin
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2013 19:16:37 GMT -5
Well gentlemen, I want to thank each and everyone of you for your opinions and the time taken to comment. There are to many to mention personally, but I appreciate it.
I've have been sitting back and watching the drama unfold, and see what the general consensus is. I have decided on the following-
Vac Form Bodies will be allowed Scale wheels and tyres only
As regards to Vac Form bodies, I have been reading the regs from other proxies, and they mark the concours as a race result, going toward the championship. In a short series such as the Pre War Proxy, every point will matter, so a sloppy or inaccurate vac form will plummet you in the championship. I have seen the great work on vac formed shells, and want to encourage all.
As regards the wheels and tyres debate. My opinion is to say that they must be to scale, as long as we can agree on what the visible wheel size, and overall diameter, and width must be, for all the cars listed in Post 1. I emplore you to have a look in your reference material, and post up the 1.1 dimensions and their 1.32 scale equivalent. Some of the cars will be easier than others, so the rarer cars would be appreciated.
There will be some tolerance on the wheels, I need to finalise these.
I will post a final set of rules when I have this information, and finalise the race system and tracks. So, over to you,
Regards Jon
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Post by Chris Wright on Jan 2, 2013 19:18:12 GMT -5
Martin, Of course if people can afford your wheelsThe best always costs more, and Peter's wheels are the best. Chris
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