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Post by Mark Huber on Dec 15, 2014 18:33:50 GMT -5
If you've already been in touch with Steve E at Ranch Design, you've found a great source of wheels for all 3 of these cars.
For the Cooper T53 which ran on relatively narrow 15" wheels I'd recommend the
Ranch Design WCF15X6-2 . . . . . 3/32" Axle (.450" inserts) if you want free spinning front wheels you may want to use the WCF15X6-2A . . . . 1/16" Axle up front.
The Brabham BT3 had 13" front and 15" rear while the BT7 had 13" all the way around.
BT3 front: WDF13N . . . . . . . for 39a type tires BT3 rear: WCF15X6-2 or if you can't find Brabham inserts with a .450" diameter, use the WCF14X6-2
BT7 1963 WDF13N front WDF 13M rear
BT7 1964 onwards WDF 13M front WDF 13W rear
The Ranch Design site also lists Paul Gage urethane tires that fit each of the above. Ortmanns will also work on those wheels.
Cheers,
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Post by rosco01 on Dec 15, 2014 22:35:12 GMT -5
Wow, Mark ! - I'm just stumped by the quick and detailed feedback you've posted - dibs to you.
Ok - so the Cooper is pretty easy, the BT 3 and 7 a bit more complicated. I guess I'll have to wait for my body suppliers to specify which model these little cars are - or, is it your opinion that the body/inserts of either the BT 3 and 7 are of a very similar base - with only superfluous changes made to define either.
I'm sort of hoping that I can use the 13 & 15 front/rear combination... it sort of would be an even greater challenge to set the chassis up parallel to the track.... and afford some of that great front/rear different look in wheels/tyres.
Yes, I've taken a peek at Paul Gage's site and I believe finding the urethane tyre won't be an issue. I expect that all the above wheels have the 2 mm rib.
There are strict parameters for the wheels and tyres - it's probably a little frugal to get those first and true them to size before any attempt is made to actually start lining the chassis up and soldering it in place.
So, and again - a huge thank you for your prompt reply, I will have to sit tight until my suppliers respond with needed specific information on the bodies/dates of the BT 3 0r 7...
As a final, do you believe it time for me to open a thread of my own on the building of these models... I believe extending this "introduction" post might be beyond it's "use by" date.... I've announced my arrival and I believe members of the forum might now expect me to commence a thread...
frats, Rosco
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Post by Stubbo on Dec 16, 2014 0:08:14 GMT -5
The Brabham BT3 had 13" front and 15" rear while the BT7 had 13" all the way around. Cheers, Although I have seen a book (1 1/2-Litre Gp Racing 1961-1965 By Mark Whitelock ) that says the two BT7's produced in 1963 ran with 15" wheels and in 1964 two new chassis were built which were modified to suit the new 13" Brabham wheels.
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Post by Phil Kalbfell on Dec 16, 2014 9:10:55 GMT -5
Ross: The minium tyre diameter in the rules of the Proxies nullify any advantage of the 13" wheels.
Brabham tested 15" wheels on the BT3 when they fitted bigger brakes,But not sure if it ever raced on the 15's.
As for the BT7 I think one of the Australian cars was fitted with 13" wheels But the owner fitted 15". I think this was Frank Matich so he could use Firestone tyres.
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Post by Mark Huber on Dec 16, 2014 11:55:09 GMT -5
Ross,
When I read your post, I neglected to note that your car or cars would be for the Tasman series. Phil and Alan would know what wheels and tires are legal and appropriate for that series.
The 13W rear wheels (for "39c" size Ortmanns or Paul Gage Monogram replicas) are definitely too wide for the Tasman Series rules at about 9mm in width.
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Post by rosco01 on Dec 16, 2014 16:07:59 GMT -5
Thanks Phil and Mark - I have just confirmed orders for the Cooper and Brabham BT-3. I am somewhat relieved to now learn that using 15" wheels will not disqualify the BT-3 - and am about to commit to an order with Steve at RD for sets of these wheels. I believe I will take the WCF 15-6.2 for the rears and WDF 15-5.2 for the fronts. Steve tells me that Paul Gage can supply urethanes of the appropriate format for both.
I am also ordering some 24t crowns and both 8 & 9t brass pinions from Steve.
Those being PGT 21072 for the rears and PGT 20062 for the fronts. I have asked for 0.045" wheel inserts from both my suppliers.
Now to find some detailed diagrams with measurements for both cars - and of course, some pix.
I am about to order a number of allowed motors - the nominated BWA and SRP ones.
I watched a series on chassis building last night and am now very, very keen to make a start.
Thanks again to all who are helping in this build... this will probably be the last post in this thread - I will attempt to start a "build" thread and stop swamping the welcome page..
frats, Rosco
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Post by rosco01 on Dec 16, 2014 16:40:06 GMT -5
Hi all, as you have probably read, I've swamped the introduction section with an ongoing babble about two builds I am now committing to for the Tasman proxy series. Although it is highly unlikely I will have anything ready for the upcoming series, I intend to make an effort.... but realistically, expect to enter in the following one... hope the rules don't change..
My builds have now been confirmed to that of the Cooper T53 and the Brabham BT-3. I have been advised that I will be allowed some margin to fit 15" wheels to the BT-3 in order to comply with the minimum tyre diameter.
So far, my arrangements are pending - awaiting order and supply.. but I expect all orders will be placed by today -some have been, and now I have confirmation - the remainder will be placed.
These will be my first slot car scratch builds - I fully expect to make many, many mistakes and follow the path of repeating construction until it is acceptable.
I have a "reasonable" level of experience in scratch building HO scale locomotives - completely from the bare materials up... excluding manufacturing motors, gears etc. I have further limited experience with building r/c model aircraft working from plans and raw materials... so, I'm hoping I can effect a reasonable product in this new and exciting venture into modeling...
My orders so far consist of two Cooper T53's and two Brabham BT-3's a pair of each from different suppliers. I have asked for the wheel inserts for both at 15" and 0.450" inserts.
I am about to order two SR181D41600X SRP FF 050 motors from Pendle's and four BWA FF 050 motors from D'Art.... hopefully, I can get them - those from Pendle I'm confident with - not so much with D'art.....
I am about to place an order for wheels, crowns and pinions from Steve at Ranch Designs.. The wheels will all be 15" - rears : WCF15x6-2 wheels for the rear and WCF15x5-2 for the fronts. All these wheels will be for 3/32" axles.
Steve tells me Paul Gage can supply urethane tyres for these wheels, namely - PGT-21072 tyres for the rear and the PGT-20062 for the front - this is yet to be confirmed.
I ordered a number of sets of motor and front end brackets from Cam in Woolongong but now intend to fabricate my own front guide plate and tube. The rear brackets will be used - I am considering fitting Oilites to the large axle bearing holes in these brackets.
I went into Australian Jeweler's Supplies in Melbourne last week and purchased a ceramic soldering tile.. after Ember set me in the direction she took.
I have purchased some piano wire of .062" and .055" for construction of the chassis plus some 1/2" wide brass strip of varying thicknesses.
I intend to find a LHS who stocks a wider range and pick up some 3/32" aluminium rod plus some brass tubing.
At this point in time, I believe I'll attempt to have the front wheel rotation independent - if it gets too hard, I'll revert back to original plan and use the grubs to secure hubs to the 3/32" axle.
I have watched a series of instructional video's on chassis construction - and am very eager to make a start (and not so eager for the expected mistakes). The series makes constant reference to "sodder" - which really grates on my understanding of the English language.... perhaps it is called "Sodder" over in the North Pacific -congruous with the interpretation of "aluminum"..... I don't know, we are strange cattle - even my colleagues across the ditch have a different interpretation of Suburu.... so, perhaps - I'll learn to de-sensitise my ears to "sodder"....
Ok - so, I've made a start... no pix yet, because I have nothing to show... but I'm hoping to give regular blow by blow posts as progress (and regress) evolves... along with a stray pic here and there...
Please, folk - I am extremely receptive and encourage any response to procedings... I will not take any offence at constructive (excuse pun) criticism and hope that others who chose to follow these builds might chime in with suggestions.
I am extremely grateful to Phil, Alan, John, Steve, Mark and Ember (sorry if I've neglected to include anyone) for their assistance in getting these projects to a fruitious beginning..
frats, Rosco
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Post by Chris Wright on Dec 16, 2014 17:47:51 GMT -5
Rosco, Hope you don't mind but I changed your title, more in keeping with the boards convention: Rosco's Builds: 1960 Cooper T53 and 1962 Brabham BT-3Could you please tell us more about and perhaps provide us an address for: Cam in WoolongongAnd since Mark and I are admin's it's SOLDER, I'm English and Mark is a well schooled and traveled Montanan, and it's ALUMINIUM!!!! So that we've now established that we're going to write in English....carry on you're doing a great job!
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Post by rosco01 on Dec 17, 2014 2:59:44 GMT -5
Sure, Chris - I'll chase up Cam's contact for you.. but you will find him on the Auslot forum - which I also belong to and am running a parallel thread (hope this is legal within this forum... give me a slap if it's not and I'll shuffle things up). website - www.auslot.com/forums/Before you jump all over Cam for his brackets, you might like to make contact with Steve at RD - he has been absolutely marvelous and patient with me in my incessant questioning and ignorance.... He tells me that he is about to make up some motor brackets for these little beastie type models.. so, to avoid the shipping internationally, and as a gesture of appreciation to Steve - I would suggest anyone interested drop him a line at Ranch Designs.... Ok - pencils ready, commence.... Ok folks, exciting developments in proceedings. My wheels and gears are to be machined by Steve at RD in the next day or two... and I will be now ordering enough to complete the four models. Further to this, John Warren has boxed up my resin bodies and parts and hopes to have them on Santa's sleigh tomorrow. He has given me permission to post the pictures below - and I'm like the kid who is sitting under the tree waiting for the presents to arrive... mystically, as we all did - until someone older spilled the beans.. because some one older did that to them.... then came Easter Bunny ... etc. etc..etc.. and as parents, we tell our kids never to lie..... This pic shows the two models - the Cooper T53 and the Brabham BT-3. John tells me that the exhaust is a bit of an issue with the Cooper and it is probably worth considering fabricating one from aluminium tubing... which I will most likely do..... Picture of the Cooper and the Brabham .. So, now I wait.... the wheel inserts are for 15" wheels at 0.0450" - which Steve assures me will be excellent fit for the wheels he is now machining. I have still yet to secure some more componentry for the chassis - guide flags, tubing along with the motors... but I will shortly have something I can work on, other than planning... frats, Rosco Attachments:
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Post by rosco01 on Dec 17, 2014 20:46:51 GMT -5
Mark, I can now confirm that I have placed the final order with Steve and that he is probably machining the wheels up as I type. I have opted for the WCF for both front and rear at 15.6-2 for the rear and 15.5-2 for the fronts.
Two of my bodies are now in transit, half of my motors are about to be dispatched and I am compiling as much technical and photographic related material to the build as I can find...
I am a little disappointed that I have found in my research - that Scalextric released a re-vamped and much more highly detailed release of this model in 2006.... I am taking note of what they have added in detail... if I see another green and white striped #2 car - I'll scream!
frats, Rosco
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Post by Mark Huber on Dec 17, 2014 21:26:34 GMT -5
Mark, I can now confirm that I have placed the final order with Steve and that he is probably machining the wheels up as I type. I have opted for the WCF for both front and rear at 15.6-2 for the rear and 15.5-2 for the fronts. Two of my bodies are now in transit, half of my motors are about to be dispatched and I am compiling as much technical and photographic related material to the build as I can find... I am a little disappointed that I have found in my research - that Scalextric released a re-vamped and much more highly detailed release of this model in 2006.... I am taking note of what they have added in detail... if I see another green and white striped #2 car - I'll scream! frats, Rosco Rosco, The Scalextric Cooper T53 is quite nice. But it's so much more fun to build them yourself. Promise not to scream.. This one is in Black & White. Cheers, Mark
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Post by rosco01 on Dec 18, 2014 2:10:57 GMT -5
Thanks Mark, no - I only uttered a shriek.... I know the pic - I've seen so many of them - nice block-out work done, though..
There's an awful lot of mystique in this T53 Cooper... the more I read, the stranger the model is. Yes, it certainly was at the cutting edge - and I find it strange that the motor variants - extending into the Climax were so extreme... I'm chasing down a particular 1.5 litre model which raced in 1961 so that I will be authentic to the Tasman series parameters..but it's pretty darned hard to nail any specifics..
The one I'm chasing at present is build 61 - 5.. my eyes fastened to this as one of the latter owners shares the same surnname as myself, being Burgess... and I can't claim any association with the particular Ian...
I am trying to find reference and hopefully any pix of the particular car - in race form... so far, no dice... and like your pic, Mark - it's probably in black and white...
I would really appreciate access/direction to specs for this T53 car - particularly the chassis - I have specs for the wheelbase and track front/rear of the 1960 version - but do not know if in the following year there were any alterations.
From what I can gather - there were 19 of these built in '60-61... some have come to a sad demise - some cannibalised for spare parts to others - and many ended up with V8's in them for hillclimbs...
I have attempted to compile some notes for my build - but gaining access via the internet browser has not been entireley complete....
Some of my build parts are probably airborne.. I have today procured more and more brass and wire - plus silver solder.. and tool aids.... so, I'm hoping to set to the first of these builds in the very near future...
thanks again, Mark - and no, I didn't draw a sharp breath of anxiety when I commenced to see your pic scroll upwards.. it must have been a great time in motor racing.. all 140 mph's of it... on pizza cutter tyres....
frats, Rosco
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Post by rosco01 on Dec 18, 2014 2:35:52 GMT -5
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Post by Phil Kalbfell on Dec 18, 2014 8:03:24 GMT -5
Ross If you are tired of Green and white Coopers then the answer is simple JUST model the Ian Burgess Camoradi T53 it was white with blue stripe. I think Ian drove the car in GP races in 1961.
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Post by rosco01 on Dec 18, 2014 22:12:24 GMT -5
Thanks, Phil - I spent nearly 6 hours last night wading through the internet to find material on the T-53.. precious little for such a (then) popular car...
Yes, I am rapidly heading towards considering the Ian Burgess T-53... I don't know if it was Climax powered - or if indeed, Ian finally qualified to a grid position.. the one reference I did find was that he failed to qualify... but I'm guessing/hoping that he succeeded.... at least once - even if it was a "dnf"...
I believe I will most likely use the white with blue stripe livery for one of these two.. and submit to the "usual" green and white striped version for the other.. it was a "traditional" Cooper garage livery... and I "should" have one in my collection.
I am unable to find any line drawings or plans for the T-53 - and call on the forum membership for assistance or direction to them if anyone knows of them.
I did read that Old123 built a T-53 using a Scalextric body (modified) and a scratch built chassis.. I am about to PM him and buzz him with more questions than he is probably prepared to respond to...
I am now believing that the two T-53's will be my very first builds.. and then onto the BT-3's....
As with scratch-building locomotives, I am hoping to find it more productive and less time consuming to have more than one on the building board at the same time.. providing, of course - that they are basically identical models.
My motors are about to be shipped from Pendle.. absolutely no word from D'Art yet on the other 5.
My axles, bearings and guides have been shipped from Armchair... I'm guessing that my wheels and gears will make the mail by this weekend (US)... if not, no biggie - they'll lob here in the next week or so.... then I can finally put something on the board and work up....
I have given the build some considerable thought - these are ongoing, and sometimes "haunt" me from sleep.
I will probably follow the "sodder" instructional video sequence... almost all of it makes absolute sense - but, it did take a very long time to watch it all... I made heaps and heaps and heaps of notes....
I was in doubt as to which guides to use - but have elected for the Slot-It LMP pick-up (version 2) with screw and grub screws.
When those arrive - I'll be able to find some brass tubing for the stem - I plan on having this a "snug" but free fit.
I am contemplating inventing some wishbone vertical ends for the axle tubes both front and back.
I can make up radius arms from thin piano wire then use this brass washer with the tops and bottoms squared off to mount the arms to - I believe this might give the model a little more definition.
For as complicated as this might seem to some (precious few, within this forum) - I don't believe it will compromise the tuning of the model after a crash - the hardened steel axles "should" keep all parts in unison - the silver "sodder" at these washers and at the inner bearings "should" only have to hold the arms and suspension dampers/springs to the tubing... plans - are "of mice and men" come to mind....."squeak, squeak.."
For the rear, I will use MB slot insert bushes with large flat ends for Cam's rear motor bracket - then "sodder" 1/8" tubing from there out to the wishbones. The radius arms will be soldered to the chassis - so there's probably a bit of creative license needed for this to be legal.
I intend, at this stage to fit dampers and springs to the assembly both ends.
The fronts, I will use the Slot-It bronze HRS spherical bushes as shown in the video's - I could get away with just using brass tubing with axles sliding within - but I want to try and attempt "soddering" the chassis rails to these bushes - and re-inforce them with the triangle method.
For the first model, I'll try and fit independent rolling wheels to the front.. I've been considering a few options to effect this...
1/8" tubing "soddered" to the suspension with a brass washer on both sides of the wheel. A hardened steel axle within the tubing will be able to rotate if the fixed washer to axle plan fails.
I plan to"sodder" the outer washer to the axle with the wheel in situ... the wheels are alloy - so I shouldn't have any issue with them getting fixed to the axle... I'll use the grey-lead pencil graphite coating trick to prevent this.... the coating of flux should be able to flush out with warm to hot water....
The grub screw hole in the rim should afford clearance of anything within - and afford lubrication.
So far, these are my intentions... far from the "KISS" principle.. but, I simply wouldn't be satisfied with a bare boned chassis -when I know I am capable of producing something just a little more elaborate... and yes, I know it's going to fail for the first few attempts at getting it all aligned...
I can be pretty stubborn when it comes to perseverance... I will give this part of the plan many attempts before probable fate relegates me to the simple and trusted method prevails.....people just tend to move out of ear-shot until they hear even greater remarks of success... or defeat!
We have new neighbors coming in here within the next month or so - I guess they'll soon learn that I, probably like many on this forum - can loose patience....
So folk, it's moving right along - nothing to see yet... but I can report "things" are moving....oh - and by the way - please don't become sensitive to my use of the spoken typed word "sodder"... if I had to withstand it in those video's - surely, those who find it equally abrasive can tolerate it in my posts.. and, when you watch them next... maybe, just maybe.... we'll all become "numb" to the word...
So, who's up to pointing me to some line drawings or plans?.... I am ever so keen to get my beady little eyes on them...
frats, Rosco
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