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Post by Peter Seager-Thomas on Jan 16, 2017 13:17:01 GMT -5
It’s a couple of years now since I bought a pair of George’s W196 Mercedes GP cars and it seemed like they would have stayed in storage had not one of our newer club members arrived one club evening with a couple of part built mid-fifties GP cars. Competition!
Of all the cars which I have recently built, this seems the most awkward regarding specifications, both the GT kits seeming to be incorrect.
With regard to the 1955 cars, there seem to be three regular areas where variations occur.
Scuttle area cooling vents. At least 4 variations. Brakes. Front can be inboard or outboard, with different wheels to suit. Wheelbase. Standard, medium and short.
The wheelbases are the confusing bit with a lot of conflicting information. The scuttle length is obviously shortened for the shorter wheelbase cars, but the difference between medium and short I cannot tell.
My build criteria were;
I wanted a long wheelbase car as the GTM kits I have are both LWB examples. I already had the correct wheels for inboard brakes. I had decals for the #10 car in black and the #2 car in red.
The LWB cars only seem to have run in the first 4 events of the season in open wheeler form, and the only one of these running #10 was at Spa, so very simply, the car had to be Fangio’s Belgian GP winner.
Last year saw me throw caution to the wind and ignore all the normal rules of reducing weight, the result being the fastest scratchbuilt car at the local club. Thus, this Mercedes has a steel chassis.
The material used was 18g mild steel. The earlier steel chassis was in 16g, but only had the tabs for the axle mounts bent over. Due to the width limitation and concern over chassis strength around the motor aperture, the Mercedes was formed into a full channel section with 8mm flanges strengthening the 24mm width. Much easier in 18g.
Another practical side of the steel chassis is that with the front mounted motor, if the need arises, a bit of enthusiastic lightening in the upper areas could result in a better balanced chassis assembly.
The present wheels are temporary fittings until I am in just the right frame of mind to build up a very special set of cross laced wheels, including see-through fronts.
Initial testing should take place in a week or so, though finishing, due to painting limitations, will be delayed for a while….
Peter.
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Post by EM on Jan 17, 2017 10:50:25 GMT -5
I shall follow with great interest - especially the front-mounted motor, an arrangement that I have never executed with satisfactory results.
Another aspect - I have always liked steel as a chassis material - far stronger on a strength to weight basis than brass and, in my opinion, actually easier to solder than brass because its poor heat conductivity makes it easier to add bits without destroying previously soldered joints.
EM
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Post by Peter Seager-Thomas on Jan 23, 2017 13:09:27 GMT -5
The chassis is now all but done. No soldering Al, it's all screwed together. The guide mount is machined from aluminium bar and finished by file, both motor mounting bracket and pinion shaft support are 16g aluminium, all are held in with 2mm screws. I used a sprung Ninco guide, MRRC motor and pinion and a Slot it axle gear. At present the axle runs in converted (to top-hat form) nylon bushes and the pinion shaft runs direct in the ally mounting. In due course these will be fitted with flanged ball bearings. The drive coupling is silicon tube. The chassis is a fairly close fit. I'm not keen on 2 point mountings unless the fit is so tight that the chassis won't move anyway. The front mount has yet to be made. The motor is mounted such that the rear end of the motor sits just forward of the dashboard. Just as well as the front of the motor is in contact with the body. I'll make a reasonable effort with the interior for this one. Initial testing on Wednesday, then once the chassis gets its finishing touches and the interior is done it'll be going into mothballs until I get the right weather for painting. The weight incidentally stands at 99g...... Peter.
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Post by Peter Seager-Thomas on Jun 9, 2017 11:57:42 GMT -5
After a nit of a break the W196R is back on the table, sort of. After a degree of confusion regarding the specifications/identities of both D24 Lancia and DB2 Aston after the paintwork was done, i'm taking a closer look at the Mercedes before I do the paint.
My details are based on Pritchard's 'Silver Arrows' book and Ackerson's 'Two Summers' but the information is contradictory. It is suggested that the special car developed for Spa which was to be driven by Fangio was not up to the job and he thus ran an LWB car, albeit, according to images, with outboard brakes. I have found an image which must be of the Spa grid, with the two Mercedes' on the front row with a Lancia. It is obvious that the Fangio car has inboard brakes, and numerals with dark outlines. Other colour pictures credited as being for this race confirm the red numerals with black outlines. There are however at least two images showing Fangio in what seems like the LWB car and, with the outboard brakes. The numerals suggest no outline and a dark hue, presumably black.
The cars with outboard drums, presumably due to a change in stresses and perhaps offsets, were those with the 14 outer spokes, in pairs.
I'm guessing the tabled facts are the wrong way round and that the LWB outboard braked car was the practice car, and Fangio switched to a short/medium wheelbase inboard braked car for the race.
Any thoughts?
Peter.
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Post by maxrossmassler on Jun 14, 2017 12:04:37 GMT -5
Hi Peter, I'm interested to try a folded steel chassis now! I have a couple of books I will search for you, Ludvigsen's Mercedes GP Cars and Nixon's The Rivals. Maybe some confirmations or other info, will look tonight..... -Max
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Post by maxrossmassler on Jun 15, 2017 23:34:50 GMT -5
So what I found was this in Karl Ludwigsen's "The Mercedes-Benz Racing Cars":
"....a special new car that had been built for the fast Belgian track but was not, after all, used in the race. It was a medium-length car, lightened at the front by the use of outboard front brakes. All the team drivers took turns putting miles on it, including Rudi Uhlenhaut and the reserve driver, American John Fitch. Fangio had chosen a long-chassis model for his unchallenged drive to victory."
As far as I can find there is no mention of a long-wheelbase W196 being fitted with outboard front brakes.
The wheelbases are listed at 92.5, 87.0, and 84.6. "A further reduction in wheelbase had been made possible by thedisplacement of the front brakes to an old-fashioned location on the wheels. THis was welcomed by Stirling Moss, who considered the inboard brakes to be smoother in operation but wrote that 'they were a nuisance when fully applied; smoke and acriid smell poured into the cockpit."
:^)
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Post by Peter Seager-Thomas on Jun 16, 2017 16:04:01 GMT -5
Thanks Max.
Unfortunately this somewhat contradicts the information I have re Spa practice, '...Fangio with his LWB W196 as he rounds Stavelot......'.
I'm still trying to figure out the visual differences between LWB, SWB and the mediums. I got the impression that the SWB cars had the side vents actually encroaching on the side of the scuttle, with the prominent exhaust mounts from within the RHS vent, and that the LWB cars had vents totally separate from the scuttle with no prominent exhaust mounts. These cars also had the scuttle 'hump' sitting back from the panel line and in at least one image, shows a central ventilator flap. Medium length chassis seem to have a similar set up, but with the 'hump' all but starting at the panel line, and so no room for the central vent. GT's model is obviously an LWB version.
I would guess there is a mass of poor information published, and everyone copies it. Pomeroy was a prime example.
I think I'll keep this one on hold and keep looking......
Thanks again Max, Peter.
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Post by maxrossmassler on Jun 16, 2017 18:46:27 GMT -5
I'm still trying to figure out the visual differences between LWB, SWB and the mediums. You can say that again, brother!
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Post by maxrossmassler on Jun 16, 2017 19:35:04 GMT -5
.....although I'm not sure there's a contradiction between Fangio practicing with the LWB (your quote) and choosing it for his unchallenged drive (my quote from KL). A lot of the written material requires English-to-English translation! I think what the author was saying is that all the MB drivers put laps on the special lightweight medium WB car in prep for Spa.
There are goofs everywhere - Nye's book has a photo of a W196 specifically showing the outboard brakes on Fangio's Monaco car(#2), but it says in the caption that they are inboard. But it has two great photos of Fangio at La Source - these clearly show outlined numerals on Fangio's #10 Spa winner - the black numbers appear at the British GP.
The GT kit I have is an LWB for sure - severe violations would have to happen to shorten it even by 5/32" to the MWB length.
Details! I hope this is all on the Final Exam......
-Max
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Post by Peter Seager-Thomas on Nov 8, 2018 11:51:33 GMT -5
With winter approaching, slot cars become more appealing.... Progress on the W196. Some of the medium wheelbase chassis' and I think all of the short wheelbase chassis' (this may be completely wrong, don't quote it) were fitted with outboard drum brakes. For reasons for which I have not found an answer, these cars had a pretty unique spoke arrangement. Too inviting to ignore, and here is one at last in the test assembly stage. Next up comes the effort to convert 2-eared Rudge knock-ons (front) and 3-eared Borrani knock-ons (rear) to the Mercedes shape..... Peter.
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Post by Peter Seager-Thomas on Apr 9, 2020 16:40:04 GMT -5
On the table again. Almost an iconic late 60s song title.... The W196 was actually painted a while back so it should be ready to handle by now. I don't know what is to be done next, it may be the correct wheels, it may be body finishing. Peter.
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Post by Chris Wright on Apr 9, 2020 17:34:52 GMT -5
Looking good Peter, those wheels look complicated!
The ones on the previous posts.
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Post by maxrossmassler on Apr 10, 2020 12:53:29 GMT -5
Thanks for posting, Peter, I always enjoy seeing your builds. Are you still thinking about using see-thru wheels for this car?
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Post by Peter Seager-Thomas on Apr 12, 2020 15:21:34 GMT -5
Chris, the wheels were indeed complicated, but it was an interesting project and worth persevering with as the spoke pattern is so distinctive. Hopefully this coming week should see some free time for wheels. Max, the next car (I have a second kit) is still planned with the see-through wheels. This will be a car with inboard brakes, so such a feature will be desirable. This car will be very suitable for such wheels due to the combination of small diameter and a reasonable number of 'working' spokes, i.e., under tension.
Peter.
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Post by Peter Seager-Thomas on Apr 17, 2020 9:45:34 GMT -5
Slow work on the W196. A little detail work is taking place. I have wasted a lot of time trying to work out how to do the tartan seats. Red with a lightish grey cross hatch I think..... The chassis had also received further attention since the last picture was posted. This is how it now looks. Peter.
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